Good point Nate. I think the main point about employer sponsored insurance is that employers make different decisions about the type of policies getting purchased than an individual. Corporations will make buying decisions on anything (company cars, office furniture, vacation perks, health insurance, etc) with the extra decision making variables of: - attracting employees from competing employers
- the expense can be written off
Employers shouldn’t have anything to do with the insurance at all.
I like those a lot, thanks Nate.
The massage therapy mandate was news to me. So out of curiosity, I looked it up and it turns out it is only a mandate in 4 states (Colorado is not one of them). And that would be just on group health insurance, not individual/family – for both the chiro and massage therapy mandates.
Also, the low deductibles are typically on group health insurance policies because the incentive for employers is attracting employees with a benefit more than getting a smart plan. Of all the individual plans our clients get, I would say that about 1 of every 25 even has a deductible below $1500.
So would you also be in favor of getting rid of employer sponsored health insurance? That would fix those problems with the system, and a few more.
Nate,
Thank you for the links. Both of those have a lot of really good data. I tried to put together where you came up with the 5-8 million number though, and I still only come up with over 25 million. You still make very good points. Would you mind sharing your opinion of what should be done?
Marie,
Sorry about the confusion. At the top of this page, you could have clicked on “PPO/HMO Providers” and at the bottom of the page you could have clicked on “provider lookup page” and they would have given you the option to search providers for any carrier in Colorado, including Humana. But here is the direct link to the Humana provider finder: http://pfp.humana.com/Pfp/PfpMain.aspx?cust=1&applId=FASTFIND
Make sure you’re in Internet Explorer on a PC or the Humana website won’t work.
You can see a very good Daily Show with John Stewart interview with Betsy McCaughey, who is credited as the creator of those same concerns with the bill – here is a link to the interview.
McCaughey has apparently stepped down from her position as the Director of Cantel Medical Corp. after this interview.
Jill,
I agree with you that health insurance should be for catastrophic coverage. The way the insurance carriers price the policies, you’re really wasting your money if you get anything else.
But, for the most part, you can’t shop around for the best price in health care like you can for pretty much anything else. That is where the “free market” idea breaks down in the health care discussion. Here is one of my experiments to shop around for the best price in health care: http://www.healthinsurancecolorado.net/blog1/2007/06/28/transparency-pt3/
Almost everybody I talk to anymore is requesting at least a $3,000 deductible, and a lot of people immediately request a $5,000 deductible. This is a HUGE difference from even just two years ago when people were afraid of how much they would have to pay if something happened. Now, with the higher premiums, it’s not just the smart shoppers that know the only reason they’re getting it is to keep from going bankrupt.
Anybody with the idea that they wanted “top shelf coverage” have a change of heart when they first get quotes and see the prices. Even the lousy plans at the top are too expensive, and that’s pretty sobering. They say they thought they could pick out the best plan like it was any other product they shop for online or at the store. But then the phone rings… “how does it work that it doesn’t cost to have a broker? ………. okay then, I’d like to only pay this much and I’m willing to have a higher deductible – what can I get?”
(those who like to share their views on the politics of the whole health care situation, please don’t hesitate to write a guest blog post.
William,
If your new job does not offer you health insurance, you can keep COBRA while you’re employed in the new position. However, if you do become eligible for a new group plan that does not have pre-existing condition limitations, you might not be able to keep your COBRA plan. Here are some details from the Department of Labor: http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/faqs/faq_consumer_cobra.HTML
Scroll down to question 14 for more information on this scenario.
As far as unemployment, I’m not sure how that system works with a situation like yours. I would recommend that you contact the unemployment office to find out whether you can go back on unemployment after your upcoming job ends in the fall.
I wish you all the best, and hope that you find a permanent job after this one ends.
Jessie:
#1 – The extra $3/month you’re paying on your health insurance premium to help pay for Cover Colorado is a tax. Taxpayers usually don’t vote or select “yes” to individual government programs. How it works is… you vote for the politicians you think will run the government in a way that you agree with. On top of that, you can contact them to let them know how you feel. So, about this $3/month, you can:
- contact your representative to let them know how you feel about the extra $3/month you’re paying for Cover Colorado.
- vote for a politician that doesn’t support the program (although I’ve never seen one on either side of the isle that doesn’t support it).
- move to one of the red states that doesn’t offer a risk pool.
#2 Cover Colorado is a risk pool. A risk pool isn’t for people that “can’t afford their bills” – that’s Medicaid. Cover Colorado is for people with serious health conditions that can’t get coverage in the private health insurance market and have no option for guarantee issue coverage through an employer. And it’s not cheap, they usually pay about double (or more) for that coverage.
A story: I got a call from a lady in Arizona a little while ago. A couple years back, she’d been diagnosed with MS and couldn’t work anymore. Because she couldn’t work anymore, she took COBRA. She called me because her COBRA was running out in a couple months and couldn’t find anybody in Arizona who could help her. She couldn’t get a job because of her condition, so she couldn’t get guarantee issue group coverage. She didn’t qualify for individual coverage. And Arizona doesn’t offer a risk pool. She was willing to pay whatever she needed to pay to get coverage, there were just no options.
If I had a business showing over $250,000 in PROFIT and the excess was taxed heavier, I would be more inclined to reduce my tax liability by investing in the business by hiring more employees, upgrading equipment, increasing benefits, etc.
Diane,
You can contact the Division of Insurance, but as of March 2007 Colorado had no mandate for colonoscopy coverage and I don’t know of any changes to that.
Don,
All this would do is reduce the number of options available. The insurance companies would find the state with the least amount of consumer protections, close up shop in the states where they currently operate, and all move to that one state.
Don,
That is very common thinking. The proof of creditable coverage only applies when you’re going to another guarantee issue plan, like through an employer or to a risk pool like Cover Colorado.*
It is complicated though. (that is why I put an asterisk)
*Say that a carriers underwriting standards were to give you a rate increase because of your pre-existing condition, instead of putting an exclusion on it or declining you. In that situation, they could still not cover your pre-existing condition (as the HIPAA guidelines state) without having put an exclusion on it if you didn’t have continuous coverage.
But in short, everybody gets underwritten for individual/family coverage the same. It doesn’t matter if you’ve been uninsured your whole life, if you’re applying for the same carrier you have a group policy with now, if you’re coming from a risk pool… whatever. If you’re healthy and they think you’re a good risk, they’ll take your premiums. If they think you’re a bad risk, they can decline you, exclude your pre-existing conditions, or increase your rate. You’re options then would be to get coverage from another employer (maybe even a group of one if you have your own business), or through the risk pool (Cover Colorado). But the guarantee issue options are more expensive because of the higher cost structure of guarantee issue plans and the more extensive coverage mandates on guarantee issue plans.
I didn’t think insurers could cancel your policy for any reason other than non-payment or fraud. Have there been any cases where an insurer has canceled a policy due to somebody enrolling in clinical trials of experimental treatments? I’ve never heard of it, and I just did a quick search and didn’t find anything (except for this post).
Thanks Don! I didn’t know the specific history of all that.
When we take continuing education courses set by the Colorado Department of Insurance, there are some questions about the blues. The information is soooo out of date that they are still talked about as a single, non-profit entity.
@sunnie:
Most underwriters and other employees of an insurance companies are paid a salary. However, agents are only paid a commission with no benefits. So they only get paid when they are productive. And if you purchase your policy through an agent, your premium is the same as if you went directly through the health insurance company (that’s the law).
Commission based pay with no benefits (vs salary) is the most efficient way to pay a workforce when it is logistical. Not having an agent leaves you exposed to either not having representation when you have problems with the insurance company after you have the policy (billing, claims, etc), or having to actually go out and pay extra money for representation.
You mention ForHealth’s comment above, she states: “I would prefer the free market to bring down the cost of routine health care.”
In the free market where companies are competing with each other, money has to be spent on marketing and sales in the interest of employees and stockholders. Compare that with a single payer system that doesn’t have expenses associated with marketing, sales, legal, or dividends.
In the free market system with many different companies for the providers to negotiate contracts with, many providers have the need for a dedicated salaried person just to sort out the billing with each different carrier. Compare that with a single payer system with one payer to bill.
@Don Levit:
That is their plan. Insurance companies don’t profit as well if they keep marketing a pool forever. It’s a better game to discontinue blocks then start new blocks in order to continually trap the people that have been diagnosed with health conditions since signing up. They can’t go anywhere, but the healthy people can. In time, their premiums will be the only $$ paying for their claims and you can offer the new policy blocks at a lower price.
Keeping insureds for the long term is not the business model used.
Brian,
That is a good question. HB1355 would be the main, if not only, reason I can think of if you’re talking about small group coverage (2- 50 employees).
Addressing The Problem Of Cost
November 19th, 2009 at 2:06 pmDon,
That may be the best idea I’ve heard in the entire health care discussion. Did you think of that yourself?
Fines Are Not The Same Thing As Taxes
October 14th, 2009 at 3:34 pmGood point Nate. I think the main point about employer sponsored insurance is that employers make different decisions about the type of policies getting purchased than an individual. Corporations will make buying decisions on anything (company cars, office furniture, vacation perks, health insurance, etc) with the extra decision making variables of:
- attracting employees from competing employers
- the expense can be written off
Employers shouldn’t have anything to do with the insurance at all.
Fines Are Not The Same Thing As Taxes
October 14th, 2009 at 11:38 amI like those a lot, thanks Nate.
The massage therapy mandate was news to me. So out of curiosity, I looked it up and it turns out it is only a mandate in 4 states (Colorado is not one of them). And that would be just on group health insurance, not individual/family – for both the chiro and massage therapy mandates.
Also, the low deductibles are typically on group health insurance policies because the incentive for employers is attracting employees with a benefit more than getting a smart plan. Of all the individual plans our clients get, I would say that about 1 of every 25 even has a deductible below $1500.
So would you also be in favor of getting rid of employer sponsored health insurance? That would fix those problems with the system, and a few more.
Fines Are Not The Same Thing As Taxes
October 13th, 2009 at 9:43 amNate,
Thank you for the links. Both of those have a lot of really good data. I tried to put together where you came up with the 5-8 million number though, and I still only come up with over 25 million. You still make very good points. Would you mind sharing your opinion of what should be done?
Humana
September 1st, 2009 at 7:05 pmMarie,
Sorry about the confusion. At the top of this page, you could have clicked on “PPO/HMO Providers” and at the bottom of the page you could have clicked on “provider lookup page” and they would have given you the option to search providers for any carrier in Colorado, including Humana. But here is the direct link to the Humana provider finder:
http://pfp.humana.com/Pfp/PfpMain.aspx?cust=1&applId=FASTFIND
Make sure you’re in Internet Explorer on a PC or the Humana website won’t work.
Advance Directives Not The Biggest Issue
August 24th, 2009 at 11:22 amYou can see a very good Daily Show with John Stewart interview with Betsy McCaughey, who is credited as the creator of those same concerns with the bill – here is a link to the interview.
McCaughey has apparently stepped down from her position as the Director of Cantel Medical Corp. after this interview.
The Cover Colorado Option
August 14th, 2009 at 12:56 amDebbie,
You’re referring to the rates CoverColorado was quoting you?
What We Expect Of Insurance
August 11th, 2009 at 10:12 pmJill,
I agree with you that health insurance should be for catastrophic coverage. The way the insurance carriers price the policies, you’re really wasting your money if you get anything else.
But, for the most part, you can’t shop around for the best price in health care like you can for pretty much anything else. That is where the “free market” idea breaks down in the health care discussion. Here is one of my experiments to shop around for the best price in health care:
http://www.healthinsurancecolorado.net/blog1/2007/06/28/transparency-pt3/
Taxes To Pay For Health Care Reform
July 29th, 2009 at 5:57 pmAlmost everybody I talk to anymore is requesting at least a $3,000 deductible, and a lot of people immediately request a $5,000 deductible. This is a HUGE difference from even just two years ago when people were afraid of how much they would have to pay if something happened. Now, with the higher premiums, it’s not just the smart shoppers that know the only reason they’re getting it is to keep from going bankrupt.
Anybody with the idea that they wanted “top shelf coverage” have a change of heart when they first get quotes and see the prices. Even the lousy plans at the top are too expensive, and that’s pretty sobering. They say they thought they could pick out the best plan like it was any other product they shop for online or at the store. But then the phone rings… “how does it work that it doesn’t cost to have a broker? ………. okay then, I’d like to only pay this much and I’m willing to have a higher deductible – what can I get?”
(those who like to share their views on the politics of the whole health care situation, please don’t hesitate to write a guest blog post.
Yet Another Out Of Network Charge
July 1st, 2009 at 11:48 amOur appeal was approved! Thanks to everybody for the good advice.
Stimulus Aims To Help Laid Off Workers Retain Health Insurance
May 10th, 2009 at 11:45 pmWilliam,
If your new job does not offer you health insurance, you can keep COBRA while you’re employed in the new position. However, if you do become eligible for a new group plan that does not have pre-existing condition limitations, you might not be able to keep your COBRA plan. Here are some details from the Department of Labor:
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/faqs/faq_consumer_cobra.HTML
Scroll down to question 14 for more information on this scenario.
As far as unemployment, I’m not sure how that system works with a situation like yours. I would recommend that you contact the unemployment office to find out whether you can go back on unemployment after your upcoming job ends in the fall.
I wish you all the best, and hope that you find a permanent job after this one ends.
Dangerous Bill To Be Aimed at the Individual Market
April 8th, 2009 at 11:37 amJessie:
#1 – The extra $3/month you’re paying on your health insurance premium to help pay for Cover Colorado is a tax. Taxpayers usually don’t vote or select “yes” to individual government programs. How it works is… you vote for the politicians you think will run the government in a way that you agree with. On top of that, you can contact them to let them know how you feel. So, about this $3/month, you can:
- contact your representative to let them know how you feel about the extra $3/month you’re paying for Cover Colorado.
- vote for a politician that doesn’t support the program (although I’ve never seen one on either side of the isle that doesn’t support it).
- move to one of the red states that doesn’t offer a risk pool.
#2 Cover Colorado is a risk pool. A risk pool isn’t for people that “can’t afford their bills” – that’s Medicaid. Cover Colorado is for people with serious health conditions that can’t get coverage in the private health insurance market and have no option for guarantee issue coverage through an employer. And it’s not cheap, they usually pay about double (or more) for that coverage.
A story: I got a call from a lady in Arizona a little while ago. A couple years back, she’d been diagnosed with MS and couldn’t work anymore. Because she couldn’t work anymore, she took COBRA. She called me because her COBRA was running out in a couple months and couldn’t find anybody in Arizona who could help her. She couldn’t get a job because of her condition, so she couldn’t get guarantee issue group coverage. She didn’t qualify for individual coverage. And Arizona doesn’t offer a risk pool. She was willing to pay whatever she needed to pay to get coverage, there were just no options.
Business 101 For Joe The Plumber
March 13th, 2009 at 4:39 pmIf I had a business showing over $250,000 in PROFIT and the excess was taxed heavier, I would be more inclined to reduce my tax liability by investing in the business by hiring more employees, upgrading equipment, increasing benefits, etc.
Preventative Care on Individual Health Insurance
March 9th, 2009 at 3:45 pmDiane,
You can contact the Division of Insurance, but as of March 2007 Colorado had no mandate for colonoscopy coverage and I don’t know of any changes to that.
HB 1256 Not Really A Benefit To Consumers
March 3rd, 2009 at 3:45 pmDon,
All this would do is reduce the number of options available. The insurance companies would find the state with the least amount of consumer protections, close up shop in the states where they currently operate, and all move to that one state.
Consumers would not benefit at all from HB 1256.
COBRA Only Helps If You Can Afford It
February 11th, 2009 at 5:17 pmDon,
That is very common thinking. The proof of creditable coverage only applies when you’re going to another guarantee issue plan, like through an employer or to a risk pool like Cover Colorado.*
It is complicated though. (that is why I put an asterisk)
*Say that a carriers underwriting standards were to give you a rate increase because of your pre-existing condition, instead of putting an exclusion on it or declining you. In that situation, they could still not cover your pre-existing condition (as the HIPAA guidelines state) without having put an exclusion on it if you didn’t have continuous coverage.
But in short, everybody gets underwritten for individual/family coverage the same. It doesn’t matter if you’ve been uninsured your whole life, if you’re applying for the same carrier you have a group policy with now, if you’re coming from a risk pool… whatever. If you’re healthy and they think you’re a good risk, they’ll take your premiums. If they think you’re a bad risk, they can decline you, exclude your pre-existing conditions, or increase your rate. You’re options then would be to get coverage from another employer (maybe even a group of one if you have your own business), or through the risk pool (Cover Colorado). But the guarantee issue options are more expensive because of the higher cost structure of guarantee issue plans and the more extensive coverage mandates on guarantee issue plans.
COBRA Only Helps If You Can Afford It
February 11th, 2009 at 4:24 pmDon,
Thanks for the good information about the options for retiring employees.
In the first part though, what do you mean about the “benefit” of converting COBRA to an individual policy?
Maybe A Chronically Ill Person Could Become President
February 7th, 2009 at 1:02 pmI thought, “who the heck is he talking about?” President Bartlett? Thank goodness for Wikipedia!
Health Insurance And Clinical Trials
January 29th, 2009 at 7:53 pmI didn’t think insurers could cancel your policy for any reason other than non-payment or fraud. Have there been any cases where an insurer has canceled a policy due to somebody enrolling in clinical trials of experimental treatments? I’ve never heard of it, and I just did a quick search and didn’t find anything (except for this post).
Non-Profit Does Not Necessarily Mean Low Cost
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:36 pmThanks Don! I didn’t know the specific history of all that.
When we take continuing education courses set by the Colorado Department of Insurance, there are some questions about the blues. The information is soooo out of date that they are still talked about as a single, non-profit entity.
Health Insurance After Infertility Treatment
December 21st, 2008 at 12:47 pm@sunnie:
Most underwriters and other employees of an insurance companies are paid a salary. However, agents are only paid a commission with no benefits. So they only get paid when they are productive. And if you purchase your policy through an agent, your premium is the same as if you went directly through the health insurance company (that’s the law).
Commission based pay with no benefits (vs salary) is the most efficient way to pay a workforce when it is logistical. Not having an agent leaves you exposed to either not having representation when you have problems with the insurance company after you have the policy (billing, claims, etc), or having to actually go out and pay extra money for representation.
You mention ForHealth’s comment above, she states:
“I would prefer the free market to bring down the cost of routine health care.”
In the free market where companies are competing with each other, money has to be spent on marketing and sales in the interest of employees and stockholders. Compare that with a single payer system that doesn’t have expenses associated with marketing, sales, legal, or dividends.
In the free market system with many different companies for the providers to negotiate contracts with, many providers have the need for a dedicated salaried person just to sort out the billing with each different carrier. Compare that with a single payer system with one payer to bill.
The Affordability Of Individual Health Insurance
December 12th, 2008 at 3:26 pm@Don Levit:
That is their plan. Insurance companies don’t profit as well if they keep marketing a pool forever. It’s a better game to discontinue blocks then start new blocks in order to continually trap the people that have been diagnosed with health conditions since signing up. They can’t go anywhere, but the healthy people can. In time, their premiums will be the only $$ paying for their claims and you can offer the new policy blocks at a lower price.
Keeping insureds for the long term is not the business model used.
The Affordability Of Individual Health Insurance
December 11th, 2008 at 7:29 pm@Don Levit:
It appears the larger rate increases are only on the closed blocks.
Health Care Sticker Shock
December 11th, 2008 at 6:09 pmBrian,
That is a good question. HB1355 would be the main, if not only, reason I can think of if you’re talking about small group coverage (2- 50 employees).
United HealthCare Lets You Buy Future Insurability
December 9th, 2008 at 3:28 pmI was thinking about that as well. I guess you’re stuck with the option of that policy just as if you’ve actually had it the whole time.